The secret to healthy skin

Lucia Ariano: Today we'll be deep diving into summer skin health, unpacking the need-to-knows about using SPF in the sunshine. Welcome to the Which? podcast. I'm Lucia Ariano and joining us on today's podcast, giving you expert advice and recommendations to help you live your best life every day, we have Dr Neal Rimmer, a senior scientific advisor here at Which? Hello Neal.

Neal Rimmer: Hello.

Lucia Ariano: And Dr Justine Kluk, a consultant dermatologist based in London. Hello Justine.

Justine Kluk: Hi, thanks for having me.

Lucia Ariano: Thanks both so much for joining us today. I'm excited for this show. We've already started chatting off air. Justine, there's so much out there, it's a bit of a minefield. Is it as complicated getting your skin care routine or what to use right?

Justine Kluk: It doesn't have to be, but there are lots of there's lots of noise around what you should be using for your skin depending on how old you are, depending on what time of year it is, depending on what your goals are. I think that can make it really confusing. Also the number of products available is very overwhelming for people. I spend a lot of time at my clinic telling my patients that actually it's not as complicated as it sounds, which I think is a big relief because it can feel sometimes that you need a degree to try and decode what you should be using for your skin.

Lucia Ariano: Literally there's so much out there and I get given so much through advertising as well and it's really hard to know what to trust. There are so many brands as well, it's really hard to know which ones to trust.

Justine Kluk: Yeah. I think also increasingly lots of brands closing down because actually I think there's so many products and some of the time we're obsessed with newness as well. So new things come up, people get bored of a particular trend, then another trend becomes the thing of the moment and then everyone moves on again. So yeah, I think brands are struggling to keep up as well, so consumers and brands.

Lucia Ariano: And we're going to talk a lot about sun cream and SPF today, but it'd be nice to get a little bit more context first. So to start quite generally, and you mentioned your clinic there, I'm really interested to hear what are some of the problems or the most common problems that people come to you with?

Justine Kluk: So we were saying before that there are about two or three thousand different dermatological diagnoses. I recognise there's quite a big difference between two and three thousand there, but there are many. But probably about 90% of the time in dermatology clinics there's the same five or ten conditions that we're treating a lot. I'm a specialist in acne, that's my passion in life. I had acne as a teenager and made it my mission to try and make people's experience of having acne and getting their acne treated better. So I spend most of my time treating acne, but the other common things we'd see in our clinic and in a general dermatology setting will be things like eczema, psoriasis, rosacea, melasma, vitiligo, alopecia, skin cancer and pre-cancerous skin conditions. These are some of the common things, infections.

Lucia Ariano: That's such a broad array that you've just mentioned there and that's only a few of the many thousands.

Justine Kluk: Yeah, and I think as I was saying before we started recording, one of the really cool things about being a dermatologist is we're in this semi-unique position where we look after people from their first days of their lives till the end of their lives. So we look after children and adults. There are a few other specialties that do this, like ophthalmologists for example or ENT doctors, but most other specialties just deal with kids or with adults. In dermatology we also do surgery as well as being physicians. So we can diagnose and treat skin cancers for example. So it's a very varied specialty and so it's always something different which makes it interesting.

Lucia Ariano: Yeah absolutely, and I wanted to ask you about routines, about day and night routines that products that you might suggest. But as you've mentioned obviously there's such a variety. So what's your advice there, maybe some general advice?

Justine Kluk: So it's way more simple than people think it is. I think there are some ground rules or basics. I call them the necessaries that everyone should have and there's a lot of the stuff that confuses people are what we'll call the nice-to-haves. So the necessaries will be something to wash your body with and something to wash your face with. They may be the same product for some people. If you're my husband you'll just use shampoo for washing your face, washing your hair, washing your body, it's one product. I don't recommend that. You do see some of those all-in-ones. Exactly, that's the extreme side but no, I would say you'd have one product for washing your body let's say, you'd have a product for washing your face for me that's normally like a nice gentle cleanser I would recommend to suit most people, a milky or gel cleanser. A moisturiser.

A lot of us now have heard the term skin barrier and this idea of looking after your skin barrier so your skin is keeping moisture in so you don't desiccate like a coconut, but also it's keeping things in the environment out that we want to protect ourselves against like infections and allergens and UV rays which I'm sure we'll come on to. So we have to look after our skin barrier and moisturiser is one of those things because it calms the immune system in the skin and it looks after our skin microbes and keeps things balanced. So I would say moisturiser is essential. Sunscreen and we can talk about when you should use sunscreen and who needs it, but that I would say is another essential to protect our skin.

Those are really the main things that we need. We may need a moisturiser for our body, of course we'll need a sunscreen for our body at some times of the year as well. Everything else is a nice-to-have pretty much. Serums with antioxidant, that is a nice-to-have if you want to slow signs of skin ageing, brightening serums, that's nice to have if you want to even out your complexion if you have darker patches. There are various hydrating serums which is basically just a different format of having a moisturiser. No one is going to suffer if they don't have an exfoliator scrub or if they don't have a sheet mask.

So those and really which cleanser, moisturiser or sunscreen you use kind of depends a bit on preference and a bit on your skin type, although I think sometimes it can be a misleading if we think of skin as only being oily or only being dry or being normal. I don't know what normal means. Most of us are a bit of a combination and also our skin is a very reactive dynamic organ so what your skin is like this month might be a bit different to what it's like in December when it's colder.

So in general if you have drier skin you might want a creamier cleanser and you might want a thicker moisturiser and you might want a sunscreen that's less irritating to the skin and you might want to use fewer products because the more things you use the more likely you are to develop allergies to things and the more likely you are to have irritation. If you have oilier skin you might want to use fewer layers, use lightweight formulations so gels or lotions or serums rather than heavier creams or ointments when you're choosing your moisturiser or your sunscreen. You might also want to use a foaming cleanser because they tend to remove a bit more grease from the skin depending on what detergent's used in it. So there's some variation there but the core products you might use would broadly be the same in terms of the necessaries. I could keep going but I'll stop.

Lucia Ariano: I could keep listening. How long do we have? I don't know. And I just wanted to ask you as well as you're talking about all those the must-haves. Are there any specific ingredients or the word actives gets used a lot, maybe if you could talk to us about what that means? Any specific ingredients or actives we should be looking for?

Justine Kluk: So I sweepingly will say the actives, it really depends how you define them but I suppose most people will use actives to describe certain ingredients. So sometimes I think the word actives and ingredients can be a little bit confused with each other and of course even those necessary products or must-have products I mentioned have ingredients in them. So there's been a big focus I'd say in the last five years maybe more on specific ingredients. I think that came with the arrival of products like The Ordinary where they called out things like salicylic acid or hyaluronic acid on the labelling. Those ingredients have been used in skin care products forever but no one really knew what they were because they were just on a long list of ingredients at the back. So the focus on ingredients is bigger and I think you'll hear of ceramides in moisturisers and in cleansers for example but we don't think of those as being actives.

So the first thing to answer your question is actives and ingredients means different things. Actives usually to a dermatologist would mean would usually be in these products that are in the nice-to-have category. So they may be things like let's think of retinoids for example or alpha hydroxy acids or beta hydroxy acids or vitamin C. These are the sort of things people usually refer to as actives and these are targeted ingredients or ingredient pairings which are used to achieve a particular goal in the skin beyond just moisturising it and protecting it from the sun and cleaning it.

So they may be used with an intention of slowing signs of skin ageing, of brightening the complexion, of reducing pigmentation, of reducing redness, of providing an extra moisture boost, of making the skin smoother. And some of these ingredients will have multiple benefits like that, boosting collagen or whatever it might be. So those are usually what are referred to as the actives.

Making the distinction between necessaries and nice-to-haves doesn't mean that I'm poo-pooing these nice-to-haves. It's just saying that sometimes people feel that if I don't have a routine that includes salicylic acid and a retinoid and a vitamin C and niacinamide and and and then somehow I'm missing a trick and my face is going to fall off too early and I'm going to be disadvantaged and you can get fear of missing out there. I definitely use some actives, some of them are over the counter, some of them are prescription because they will be achieving a desired objective for me in terms of what I want to do with my skin.

So I want to have my skin looking as firm and smooth and even in complexion for as long as possible, particularly because I got loads of sun as a child in South Africa so I'm already fighting lots of cumulative sun damage so I will use a retinoid in the evening and I will use an antioxidant serum, mine has vitamin C, in the morning. So I'm not poo-pooing those things, I'm just saying that they're not absolutely necessary but they can be utilised to target certain goals and what's really important is for a person to be clear what their goals are so that they can choose the right actives for them. And then it's a little bit easier to work out what to put in your routine, you might include an active for example in the evening to begin with and if your skin is tolerating that and still needs more, you're not achieving your objective yet, you might add another active in the morning for example.

Lucia Ariano: Well shall we get into one of the must-haves then, which is SPF? Or sunscreen. Neal, shall we bring you in now? Are they the same thing?

Neal Rimmer: In the UK, I think also worldwide, sunscreens and SPF is commonly interchangeable but they're actually not the same. SPF is sun protection factor which actually relates to how much UVB is being filtered out and that's what the number relates to on the bottle. And I think that's what everyone pictures when they see sunscreen in the supermarket or online. Now sunscreens themselves are actually a bit more broader term, it covers everything from creams, liquids, sprays, roll-ons. But sunscreen actually applies to protecting you against UVB and UVA so it's more broad spectrum UV protection. So it is you've got to protect yourself against both types of UV light, but most commonly because the number is on the bottle that's what everyone thinks of and uses when referring to the product when actually that's only referring to one element of the protection.

Lucia Ariano: So when you're shopping then for sunscreen, what exactly should we be looking for?

Neal Rimmer: So in the UK it's commonly recommended by the NHS, Cancer Research UK that we always use a high SPF protection. So this is 30 and above, that'll deliver sufficient protection for you in general if you're using it correctly. UVA, the NHS also recommends that we use the minimum of four stars to have sufficient protection against UVA. And those are what you really should look out for is the ones that products are highly rated got the high numbers and high number of stars to deliver the adequate protection for you.

Justine Kluk: It's been a bit confusing over time, hasn't it? And I think as the SPF number as you say is really easy to see at the front of the sunscreen bottle so you can see if it says 6, 10, 30, 50 etc, which I think is why the term SPF has become ubiquitous and people use it instead of the word sunscreen, whereas the UVA I think is a bit more confusing. Even as a dermatologist when I was training I found it a bit confusing to understand the UVA rating because there are different ways that people will display the UVA rating. I hadn't understood initially that the star rating was a Boots construct that they had created to help consumers quantify the level of UVA protection. Some countries will use this UVA +++ system and then there's the European UVA in a circle which you might see which actually doesn't tell you much about the UVA protection apart from that the UVA protection is at least a third of the UVB proportionally, which what does that mean? How do we know if it's enough? So I think the star rating is the most helpful but it is a bit confusing for people, isn't it?

Neal Rimmer: Definitely. I think with sunscreens because throughout history the development of the products they're getting a lot more different labelling, everyone presents everything slightly differently. There's you've got primary sunscreens versus secondary sunscreens which are just a product in themselves with added UV filter. So it's a very complicated nature and it's not really created the best environment for the consumer, especially sunscreen as you said is a necessity, you really should be using it because and to touch back on what you mentioned earlier, sunscreens that preventative treatment, my personal view on it is prevention is better than is easier than the cure because you're trying to regain something that you've already lost in that case. So using sunscreen is a lot better for preventing that damage happening to you and the market I think so saturated now that it distracts and pulls away from what the real meaning and the real purpose for sunscreens were, which is that UVA and UVB protection.

Justine Kluk: Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to say it gets you reminded me of something else while you're talking. It gets even more complicated because not only is there decoding the label and what is UVA and UVB, you'll hear about visible light as well as something that you want to protect your skin against in some sunscreens protect better than others. And then there's the SPF in other products, so is the SPF in my makeup or moisturiser enough? And then there's whether it's water resistant or not and then there's whether it's a lotion or if it's a spray or if it's a powder or something like this. And I mean it is really confusing to try and work out what's best, isn't it?

Lucia Ariano: Well that's a really good point you raise there because whether or not the SPF in your tinted moisturiser, your face cream is enough is a really good question and I'd like to ask you that, is it ever enough?

Justine Kluk: It can be, it depends how much you apply. So my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is that to be able to put an SPF claim on the product you have to believe and I suppose have tested that the product offers that level of SPF. So if your foundation says SPF 50, you've got to be able to believe that if you put the right quantity of that makeup on you're going to get SPF 50 protection and that it would be the same SPF 50 whether it's in your moisturiser or if it's in your dedicated sunscreen product.

There is some nuance there though because we were just talking about UVA protection and most sunscreen, dedicated sunscreen products these days will offer you that UVA protection and it'll have one of those UVA marks that we've talked about or it will say broad spectrum. To the best of my knowledge I don't think foundations or makeups necessarily give UVA protection as well. I know that they might say SPF 50 in the foundation but I think that's the UVB protection, not necessarily the UVA. I'm sure the tint in it also gives some protection against visible light. So I think that's one difference.

I think another difference is that a lot of sunscreens are a bit more waterproof or sweatproof or a little bit more rub resistant, maybe some better than others, but makeup is not designed to be used in the same way and endure the same conditions as if we were going to the beach to use sunscreen. So I think maybe it might rub off or wear off more quickly.

But the most important thing is we just don't put enough on. So if you're supposed to put on let's say a quarter to half a teaspoon of sunscreen for your face, neck and ears to get a thick enough layer of the product on your skin so that you are actually getting the SPF and the UVA protection that it says on the label, that's quite a lot of foundation and most of us don't even put enough sunscreen on most of the time. I think it's estimated that people put on less than half of the amount they're supposed to anyway with sunscreen and that stuff that rubs in. If you had to smush into your face and your ears and your hairline half a teaspoon of foundation, that's not going to look very good. So most of us are not putting that amount on. So I would normally say to my patients, lovely if your foundation's got some SPF in or your tinted moisturiser does, super, but you're not going to rely on that on its own in spring and summer or if you're on your holidays, you're going to put your sunscreen on first and then you can put this on top.

Lucia Ariano: And you mentioned there spring and summer. What about autumn and winter? Should we be wearing sunscreen all year round?

Neal Rimmer: At Which? we've had discussions with a lot of different experts and entities like the Cancer Research UK. And the general advice that you should follow is if the UV index, which is the measure of how intense the UV light is in the environment, you should really use sunscreen in general when it's UV index is around three or above because that's the level that's going to harm you in general if you're using it correctly. Below when it's two and one it's usually not going to do much to you or harm you. So the general advice is that you should really check what the UV index is and apply sunscreen when it's three and above. And that's like an 11-point scale from low to very high. Now I may have to rely on the dermatologist here, but I know that some people do use sunscreen all year round, I'm one of those people as well, but for it is I'll be a bit more cosmetic usage because UV light does differ across the year. It's more intense in summer and spring and bits of autumn but when it gets to the winter months it's not as intense. So those levels drop off but you're still encountering UV light but it's at a lower level.

Justine Kluk: Yes. I think it's actually the more we know about this the more difficult it gets to explain actually. When I was training to be a dermatologist strictly in the medical setting we used to tell people to wear sunscreen in spring and summer. That was the advice. And then when I think there's been an explosion in interest in skin care and sun creams over the last ten years suddenly the messaging was everyone should wear sunscreen every day of the year.

And I think we're now moving to something that may be a little bit more nuanced than that, but I think the terms are not entirely sort of fleshed out and clear at this moment because I think that there are sort of a couple of variables, one is time of year. So UV levels are definitely going to be lower in autumn and winter than they are in spring and summer, not nothing but low. So is it reasonable to say that everyone should be wearing sunscreen all throughout the year?

The other thing is our skin colour makes a big difference as well and the risk to us from the sun and the risk of things we might miss out on, for example vitamin D if we are overzealous with sun protection in certain skin colours. So I think we're realising that probably there isn't a one-size-fits-all message. We have to be really careful to communicate this responsibly because we want to make sure that the people who really will benefit from the sunscreen continue to use it and that the people who may benefit from using it less understand when and why.

So if I've made that any more confusing for you it's because it can be a bit confusing. But I can maybe put a little bit of flesh on the bones there which is that one of the main reasons why people will wear sunscreen, let's talk from a safety perspective, you were calling it a necessity which it is, is to protect our skin from sunburn and also to prevent skin cancer, so to reduce damage to the skin from the sun. And that's absolutely clear that if the UV index is three or higher there's enough solar radiation where you are at that time that you should your skin could be at risk of sun damage. That tends to correspond with March to October let's say in the UK, that's the time where the UV index is probably going to get that high. That's the highest risk time of getting sunburn and potentially subjecting your skin to damage that might lead to skin cancer later in life.

So a lot of people will benefit from wearing sunscreen during those months. Potentially not so much benefit though if you have naturally brown or dark brown skin because you're very unlikely to get sunburn because the melanin in your skin provides you some protection. When I say very unlikely to get sunburn I mean in the UK. So the UV index in the UK only ever really gets up to about seven. People who have brown skin or dark brown skin have more melanin in their skin, that confers a bit of extra protection compared to someone who has white skin like me.

So actually the British Association of Dermatologists says that if you have very dark skin, very dark brown skin, maybe your skin gives you up to seven times more protection than if you have white skin. And if you have brown skin maybe four times more. So actually a UV index of seven would mean I'm very likely to burn but someone with very dark brown skin it's the equivalent of a UV index of one, they may not even need sunscreen. So you see what I mean? It can be a bit different. So the advice the British Association of Dermatologists gives, the latest advice on their website for people with skin of colour is if you're in the UK in spring and summer from a sun damage and skin cancer perspective it may not be necessary to wear sunscreen.

If you're travelling and the UV index is going up to 11 you probably do need to wear sunscreen. If you're out in very intense sun for a long time you probably want to wear sunscreen. And they even go so far as to saying that if you get a sunburn in the UK actually that's rare enough if you have very dark brown skin that maybe you have some sort of sun sensitivity condition and that needs to be investigated. So I think we really need much clearer advice on helping people to not have that decision to make on their own, like what do I do today?

If we're talking about other reasons for wearing sunscreen like for example to manage pigmentation on the skin and people who have black or brown skin are much more likely to suffer with hyperpigmentation which is where they can get these sort of darker or deeper marks on their skin that can take a really long time to go away. They certainly would want to wear sunscreen in spring and summer because that is going to inevitably going to get darker. So if we're sort of moving away from sunburn and skin care probably people with skin of colour would want to wear sunscreen to protect their skin from pigmentation.

Another reason for wearing sunscreen would be to slow the signs of skin ageing. And some people will say well actually sun damage accumulates over the course of a person's life and I realise that I'm unlikely to get a sunburn or skin cancer if I don't wear sunscreen in autumn and winter, but I want to keep my UV exposure as minimal as possible over time so I might decide to wear sunscreen all throughout the year and even in spring and summer when the UV index is lower than three.

So there are all these different layers. I think some of the other situations where people might need to wear sunscreen more often or more throughout the year or have a lower threshold for wearing it are if they have a skin condition that is aggravated by sun exposure like rosacea for example or there's certain types of eczema that are aggravated by the sun. If they have a condition where their skin might burn more easily so condition like vitiligo where you have these depigmented white patches on the skin. If you're someone who has a personal or family history of skin cancer or you have lots of moles you might want to have a lower threshold for putting sunscreen on. If you have a suppressed immune system so because you've had an organ transplant or something like this you may be at higher risk of skin cancer regardless of your skin colour so you might also have a lower threshold for putting sunscreen on.

So it's yeah, it's complicated. To make all of that more simple what I tend to say in my clinic is definitely wear the sunscreen in spring and summer and I tend to tell everyone to do that regardless of what their reasons are. And then I say if you're really motivated to slow the signs of skin ageing or you have a medical need you might also wear sunscreen at other times of the year.

It is very complicated but super helpful to hear all this context because again it's just so hard to cut through and to really trust any of the advice you get when there's so much. I feel a bit guilty in answering that actually because it's a really long and complex and a little bit of a long-winded answer I appreciate. But actually and I hope people don't listen to this and think oh my it's even worse than I thought and I'm even more confused. I suppose the main message to take from it is if it's confusing for me as a dermatologist to have to try and explain it, it is a bit confusing and I think we do need much clearer messaging for people so that they really do know which type of sunscreen is best for their particular skin type at this time of year given any risk factors that they might have and given any goals that they might have.

The Australians have done a really good job with this I think. I believe it was in 2023 they revised their guidelines and they have really tried to sort of create different categories to try and make sun protection advice a bit more tailored depending on what the person's skin type is, what their risk factors are etc. And that makes a lot more sense because we don't want to oversimplify, but on the other hand we don't want to scare people.

Lucia Ariano: Okay Neal, can we hear a quick word on our sunscreen testing? Our testing is a great way for people to cut through and know which brands they can trust or which particular products they can trust and which ones fail our test. So can you talk to us a bit about what we do?

Neal Rimmer: So with our testing there are three main elements, our application test, determining SPF, as well as determining UVA protection. Now focusing on the levels of SPF and UVA, we follow international and British standards and they're done at independent laboratories. With SPF, the test requires at least ten volunteers and we apply a small amount of sunscreen to the back of these volunteers and we use a lamp and shine that lamp onto the back and we actually determine the minimum level of UV light that is required to generate erythema, which is sunburn to everyone else. And that's where a slight redness and we actually determine the minimum amount with and without sunscreen and the ratio between those two values is SPF number.

With UVA, this involves using a spectrophotometer, which is a fancy device that detects light essentially and specific wavelengths. So essentially with UVA we shine UVA light into the spectrophotometer and measure how much UVA light is absorbed via the sunscreen. That's just a very summarised version of the two standards and that allows us to measure and quantify the SPF and the UVA. We also do application testing which is a blind test where we get volunteers to try out the sunscreens and get them to rate on a variety of different qualities from ease of application, ease of absorption, tackiness, greasiness, odour, any visible streaks or marks that are left over by the sunscreen. And in our testing to be a Best Buy need to pass both the UVA and SPF requirements as well as get five stars but anything that fails to deliver on either claimed SPF or UVA then we label it as a Don't Buy.

Lucia Ariano: And it's quite shocking because we have to my memory we've found Don't Buys every single year of testing.

Neal Rimmer: Yes, in the last four, five years we've encountered 12 different products that have actually not delivered on either SPF or UVA or even both of them on some occasions. So our testing does reveal the products that do fail and fail to deliver those minimum levels.

Lucia Ariano: And I should mention here that all of these reviews are available to Which? members. And if you're not a member you can sign up with 50% off your first year at which.co.uk/podcastoffer. And we do have some results coming out in the coming weeks don't we? And including the any Don't Buys which we don't know officially yet, well I don't know, which will be available to everybody won't they?

Neal Rimmer: Yes, we'll be publishing our this year's round of testing later this month.

Justine Kluk: I'm going to suggest another category for your consumer testing which is things that don't leave yellow marks on your clothes or your swimsuit. I like that added in for future years.

Neal Rimmer: In previous years we actually did side stories, I think one was either last year or the year before we actually did a little investigation about do sunscreens still do that and what's the best methodology to remove it. I missed it. I've also found sunscreen has removed whatever was on a metal chain, like made the copper come through. And I've definitely find that when I take off my makeup at night sometimes I think it's the SPF it's a bit yellow on my cotton pad. So maybe it does still happen.

Lucia Ariano: But to end it would be really great to just hear any any notes of final advice, perhaps on what to look out for in SPF or any general advice based on what we've spoken about today. Do you want to start us off?

Justine Kluk: Yeah I can start us off. I think I'm going to give this one because as someone who has struggled with breakouts like 90% of people in their teens and 20s and lots of adult women who come to see me in the clinic, a lot of people will say that they don't want to wear sunscreen because they're worried it's going to give them acne or give them breakouts. So I think I will start there to say that sunscreens are there's so many different ones out there these days, look for terms like non-comedogenic on the pattern and that means non-pore blocking and that may tell you that the brand's thinking about oily or acne prone skin. So everyone can wear sunscreen even if they have acne. That's one of the most common questions I get asked.

Lucia Ariano: I'm pleased you touched on that because I did want to ask you that but we're running out of time. And Neal, is there anything you'd like to leave us with?

Neal Rimmer: Yes, so whilst we discussed earlier that sunscreen is a necessity for your skin care regimen, my advice would be that it's only one of three elements that you need to deal with. The other one is using clothing or other protective layers like sunglasses, hats, UV protective clothing to also provide protection because you're not going to be able to get sun cream everywhere, you don't want it everywhere but you're going to need that protection. So there are other methods to protect you like clothing and so on.

And finally the other recommendation is you should try to avoid the sunlight when it's at its hottest in the middle of the day, seek shade so that you're getting protection from multiple angles. It's not just don't rely on one, it's a multifaceted approach that you need to deliver to use. And just one quick mention of something I wanted to ask you earlier but as I said we're running out of time. And I suppose also not to miss certain areas, I know you've recently done a video for Which? talking about most commonly missed places. What are some of those quickly before we leave?

Neal Rimmer: Yes, there's many areas that people tend to forget about. So remember to apply sun cream onto your eyelids and under your brow, eyebrow. People forget their ears, the back of their hands because you're always washing your hands so it's easy to rub off you need to remember to apply there. Under your armpits, your feet, back of the knees, especially if it's shorts and t-shirt weather. There's areas that you will forget about but these are like common areas that people tend to forget about.

Justine Kluk: And just to add at the top of your scalp if your hair's not as thick as it once was. Always have a cap in my back.

Lucia Ariano: Well what an episode. We easily could have spoken for another hour or day. But thank you both so much for joining us today.

Neal Rimmer: Thanks.

Justine Kluk: Thanks for having me.